Andrew Dismore

At today’s London Assembly plenary on policing and crime in London  Labour London Assembly Member for Barnet and Camden Andrew Dismore AM questioned Metropolitan Police Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick and Mayor Sadiq Khan over the Government’s lack of preparation for policing and security that follows from a ‘no deal’ Brexit, now only 3 weeks away.

Mr Dismore said to the Commissioner:

“You said in the Police and Crime Committee on the 11^th November that you have not been not privy to the negotiations with the EU around policing and security and you did not know what arrangements were going to be in place after Dec 31^st, which I, and I am sure most people, find extraordinary. You said:

“I do not know what we are going to retain – for us, we make very good use of our access to Europol (most concerning from an organised crime perspective) and Eurojust. Clearly, we will be out of those …We use the European Arrest Warrant repeatedly and at high volumes and for serious crime. (Over 16,000 arrests have been made under the EAW since 2009)

“It seems slightly less likely that we will be able to do that in future and so there will be other arrangements put in place to parallel those. (but you don’t know what as yet?) The issue of passenger name records is extremely important not least to counterterrorism policing and is unresolved at the moment. (Schengen Information System (SIS II). It is the most widely used and largest information sharing system for security and border management in Europe)

“We are members of Prüm [Convention] and all countries benefit from the UK’s membership of Prüm, not least us, and the MPS is in the forefront of that. (This is a fingerprint sharing database the UK has only been part of since July 2019 but has allowed UK police to already make 89,000 matches with EU held fingerprint data)”

Are you any the wiser now than you were a month ago at PCC?”

(red text added by Mr Dismore to Commissioner’s quote)

Mr Dismore said to the Mayor:

“A week after the Commissioner’s comments, on 19th Nov, Assistant Commissioner Basu, head of counter terrorism, told the BBC:

“We need to negotiate a security treaty that either retains or improves on the current position that we’ve got today. It’s incredibly important for the safety and security of our country”. A no-deal Brexit, he said, means: “The country would be less safe in a non-negotiated outcome where a security treaty wasn’t forthcoming. That’s the bottom line….. we’ve made it very clear that we need as much time to negotiate those agreements with our European counterparts as possible, and we can’t do that until the negotiations are finished.”

I assume you agree with him; and agree that the safety and security of Londoners is paramount. The Metropolitan Police Service need access to vital policing tools across Europe, but in light of there only being less than 3 weeks to go and no deal in sight, where are we in getting these security arrangements sorted out? What impact is a ‘no deal’ Brexit going to have on policing and security?”

The Mayor commended the work the police were doing on counterterrorism, and that he had seen the benefits of the European Arrest Warrant and close cooperation with European neighbours. He said that despite the intelligence “blind spot”, bilateral contacts were still good, however this was likely to deteriorate after January 1^st. The Mayor also said that either a “no-deal” or a “flimsy deal” would lead to a worse situation than there currently was.

ENDS

For further information call Andrew Dismore on 07957 625 813, number not for publication.

Notes for editors

Text of Assembly motion:

“This Assembly notes the importance of current security arrangements with European Union members states, and the role that the European Arrest Warrant, ECRIS database, Schengen Information System and other tools that we stand set to lose on 31 December 2020, play in keeping Londoners safe. This Assembly further notes that the Government risks jeopardising Londoners’ safety if it does not reach an agreement with the European Union by 31 December 2020 to maintain access to these tools. This Assembly asks the Chair to write to the Home Secretary and call upon the Government to either reach an agreement with the European Union to maintain the current level of security cooperation, or provide urgent reassurance that adequate contingency measures are in place should an agreement not be reached.”

Background

The Transition Period comes to an end on 31 December 2020, yet we still do not have an agreed trade deal with the EU. If an agreement is not reached, the UK will revert to World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, of which the government now refers to this outcome as an “Australia-style deal” (Australia trades with the EU largely on WTO rules).[1]

In addition to the economic impact of a no-deal scenario, impacts will be felt across a number of sectors such as the environment, and importantly, policing in London.

Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Mr Basu told BBC Newscast: “We need to negotiate a security treaty that either retains or improves on the current position that we’ve got today. It’s incredibly important for the safety and security of our country. And I know the government gets that. And I know that that is what it’s aiming for. When asked what a no-deal Brexit would mean for UK security, he said: “The country would be less safe in a non-negotiated outcome where a security treaty wasn’t forthcoming. That’s the bottom line.”[2]

Mr Basu also said he was keen to know the outcome of negotiations as soon as possible.

“We’ve made it very clear that we need as much time to negotiate those agreements with our European counterparts as possible, and we can’t do that until the negotiations are finished.”[3]

On security, the UK had wanted to maintain the same access to shared databases that it has now, but the EU says that is not on offer to non-members.[4] A spokesman for the government has said: “We are focused on reaching an agreement with the EU and there is a good degree of convergence in what the UK and EU are seeking to negotiate in terms of operational capabilities.” If it was impossible to reach an agreement, they said, “we have well-developed and well-rehearsed plans in place”.[5]

Impact on Metropolitan Police Service

In correspondence with the Home Affairs Select Committee, the National Police Chief’s Council (NPCC) and National Crime Agency (NCA) have said in respect of the 4 main current EU cooperation arrangements that stand set to be lost in the event of no negotiated outcome:[6]

1. SIS II – The UK is expected to lose access to the Schengen Information System (SIS II). It is the most widely used and largest information sharing system for security and border management in Europe. SIS enables competent national authorities, such as the police and border guards, to enter and consult alerts on persons or objects. In the event of a ‘non-negotiated outcome’ (NNO) the UK will fall back on Interpol notices, but the director of the NCA has said that this will not be a like for like replacement and won’t be as efficient as SIS II due to capability gaps affecting both sides. Interpol system aren’t integrated with the Police National computer and border systems whereas SIS II was. 60 new NCA officers are having to be recruited to make the transition as smooth as possible.

1. Euro Arrest Warrant – The NCA is putting a new system in place to replace the existing arrangement under the European Arrest Warrant. Over 16,000 arrests have been made under the EAW system since 2009. The NCA will manage the new system which will be based on Interpol notices but again ay that this will be more complex than the system currently in place under European Arrest Warrant.

1. Prum database – This is a fingerprint sharing database the UK has only been part of since July 2019 but has allowed UK police to already make 89,000 matches with EU held fingerprint data. If there is no negotiated outcome, there is no alternative to this, and the UK will lose access with no contingency in place.

1. Europol – The NCA has said losing access to Europol is most concerning from an organised crime perspective. In the event of no negotiated outcome the UK will leave Europol with a set of wind down provisions, putting in place bi-lateral measures for ongoing join investigations. The NCA is preparing, upon losing access to Europol, to place large numbers of liaison officer sin European capitals by December 2020.

Police and Crime Committee 11 November 2020 transcript

Andrew Dismore AM: Cressida, could you give us your latest assessment of potential impact Brexit may have on policing and security in London?

Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): We have discussed this many times over the last months. Our position has not changed. Clearly, there is a lot of negotiating going on at the moment and I am not privy to that negotiation and nor would I expect to be, but we will be in some different position after 31 December [2020].

I will talk about it in three different ways. Firstly, we have been looking at our own resilience and our contingencies for that moment. We have been looking at all our supply chains and those kinds of things to ensure that we, the MPS, will be resilient whatever may happen going forward. I am pretty confident around that.

Secondly, we have been looking at whether we will need to assist any other police service potentially with any protests or any other issues at that time of year. We have a national way of working. Again, I am very confident that it is unlikely that there will be a big drain on the MPS either in London or in helping other colleagues at that point.

Thirdly, we have the impact that comes from the change in our security arrangements and legal opportunities. On the one hand, further down the road no doubt, the fact that the nature of border checks will be different may create some greater security and some opportunities for us. Also, as you know, in an ideal world – and I do not know what we are going to retain – for us, we make very good use of our access to Europol and Eurojust. Clearly, we will be out of those but we may have a very constructive and positive relationship very quickly. We use the European Arrest Warrant repeatedly and at high volumes and for serious crime. It seems slightly less likely that we will be able to do that in future and so there will be other arrangements put in place to parallel those. The issue of passenger name records is extremely important not least to counterterrorism policing and is unresolved at the moment. We are members of Prüm [Convention] and all countries benefit from the UK’s membership of Prüm, not least us, and the MPS is in the forefront of that. Of course, we can look at criminal convictions and wanted missing people pretty automatically at the moment.

These are all things that in an ideal world we would want to retain because we are used to using them and they are helpful to us, but I cannot say which ones will go. What I can say is that for all of them we have been looking at what the alternative arrangements will be. As I have said before, in most instances they will be slower, they may be more costly and there will be an impact for us, but we will get on with it. I do not want people to think that this is a disastrously risky thing that is happening overall, but there will undoubtedly, I am sure, be some cases where people will say in January, February and March [2021], “If we had the [European] Arrest Warrant or if we had access to that system, whatever it is that has gone, things might have been different”.

Andrew Dismore AM: Thanks for that. I do find it surprising that you – not you personally but the MPS generally – have not actually been involved in some of the background negotiations on what is going on. You have made your position pretty clear that you would like all these things to continue. Now we have only a matter of weeks – we have left the European Union (EU) – before the transition period is over and from what you are saying you still do not know which of these arrangements will still subsist after the end of the transition period, which I do find very surprising.

Are we in a position, with or without a deal, that come 31 December [2020] you still will not know which of these we still have?

Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): I have to say I am not sure when I – or any of us – will know what for definite we are going to have or not have. I am a police officer. I am not a politician. Clearly, security is only one aspect of all of the conversations and negotiations that need to take place.

What I would say is that I have had ample opportunity to brief and the National Police Chiefs’ Council has been at Select Committees. Richard Martin, our Deputy Assistant Commissioner (DAC) who leads nationally, has been talking publicly and Lynne Owens [Director General, National Crime Agency] as well. We have made our points and we have been able to show how we use the different instruments and what we would do if we did not have them. I am a police officer. I am not a politician.

Andrew Dismore AM: I am certainly not asking you to answer my questions as a politician. I am asking you to look at them as a senior police officer. It just seems to me strange that so close to the end of the transition period, you still do not know what we are going to have or not have. That is not a question as a politician. I am a politician. You are a police officer.

I am just asking. I think from what you are saying it is the case. Is it the case that you simply do not know what is going to be there? You may have hopes. You may have expectations of being able to have replacement arrangements, but if they are not negotiated by 31 December [2020], we will be going into the new year without anything in place until something can be put in place to replace them.

Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): Some of them – we can all guess – are more likely than others, probably, but I do not know. That is why we have been building up our ability to do all the parallel things and also influencing, I hope effectively, in Government the policymakers as to how those would need to be enabled in law or in further negotiations with either member states or the EU in the future. It is an ongoing dialogue and we will not know until we know.

Andrew Dismore AM: Yes, but I just find that incredible. You have had to make contingency arrangements for deal or no deal and for something in between when you do not know what is going to come out the other end, which must have taken up an awful lot of officer time and money to do. That must be self-evident. It does worry me that potentially we are heading for the new year without you knowing what powers you are going to have.

Can we go on to another contingency point as well? You did raise the point about borders and so forth. Has any work gone into planning for potential abstractions of officers to help out at borders and ports in the event of no agreement being reached?

Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): Over the last 18 months, we have been talking with national policing about who would release what units in what circumstances. That is true for a whole variety of different operational scenarios, of which this is just one. As I said, I am pretty confident that it is not a likely scenario that I would be having to release large volumes of people to other forces as a result of our exit from the EU.

Andrew Dismore AM: That would include the Border Force, presumably, who are not police officers?

Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): We will not be supporting the Border Force ourselves and we will not be substituting for the Border Force. The Border Force has built up quite a large force. We have an arrangement where we can go and assist as required. It is one of the strengths of British policing that we have the same radio system, same command and control, same ethos, same discipline and guidance. In extremis we will go, but my job as Commissioner is to make sure that we look after London whilst being collaborative with other forces. On occasions they come and help us and sometimes we go and help them for big operations or surprise events. With this, we are not going to be releasing large numbers of officers.

Andrew Dismore AM: The last point I want to put to you before I come to Sophie [Linden] is this. We saw the UK terror threat alert being raised to ‘severe’ only a few days ago. That is now happening in a context where you do not really know what information you are going to be able to get out of the EU come the new year. That sounds to me an incredibly dangerous scenario for us to be in. Maybe that is a question I should put to Sophie rather than you, Cressida.

Cressida Dick DBE QPM (Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis): These are important tools, but it is worth remembering of course that the Government and within the Government the intelligence agencies are not dependent on all of these in the same way that we are. It is also worth knowing – I have said this before – that counterterrorism policing and indeed the MPS have extremely good bilateral relationships with our counterparts in the European countries, all of whom are very eager to work together and be highly collaborative. We will work within whatever the legal framework then is, but I am pretty confident that our ability to, for example, in a high-threat situation work very well with our colleagues overseas will not be diminished significantly.

Andrew Dismore AM: Can I come to you, Sophie? I do not know if you will agree with me, but it does seem to me absolutely bizarre that here we are a matter of weeks from the end of the transition period and we still do not know what powers and arrangements we are going to have with our European counterparts to deal with crime, information exchange, terrorism and so forth. It just seems to me absolutely appalling. Perhaps you could let us know what efforts the Mayor and you on his behalf have been making with the Government to bring this home on what prospects there are of having a deal on policing and security by 31 December [2020] even if there is no deal on trade.

Sophie Linden (Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime): I could not agree with you more. It is incredibly worrying the thought that as at 31 December [2020] we could go out of the EU and not have the right arrangements and the right deals in place around security. I do not know any more than you do about how efficient the negotiations are, how prioritised security is and what the Government is actually asking for. I really worry because the European Arrest Warrant is very unlikely to be maintained because of the link to the European Courts of Justice and we know that that is one of the red lines. The amount of data and information sharing in the systems that we share with Europe that automatically happen is incredible and really important. If you pick somebody up on the street in London and you run that name through the right database, you will know whether they are wanted in other parts of the EU. Not being able to do that is going to pose a risk to our communities and to London and it is incredibly worrying.

The Mayor has written again to the Government around what is happening around security and Brexit and has been very clear around the threat and the risks that we are heading full speed towards and asking for assurances around that. As far as I am aware, we have not had any response back to that.

Really quickly – sorry, Unmesh, I know you are trying to move on – and to be really clear, alternative arrangements can be put in place. Those bilateral agreements can be put in place, but they take a long time. The words of the Commissioner and other senior police officers have used before are that they are incredibly clunky. They will take days and weeks and months to use, compared to things like the European Arrest Warrant, which on average takes about 48 days, I think, to use. It also costs money. The estimate for the amount of resources and funding that are going to have to be put in place if we do just crash out of any security deals is around £22 million across all forces to put in place the arrangements and the officers who can make their way and use the much more lengthy, clunky ways of getting some information, probably only about the really high-risk individuals, out of the EU because we will not have that ability to do it. It is really worrying.[7]

 

[1] BBC News, (03.12.2020), What does ‘no-deal’ Australia-style Brexit mean?, [accessed 03.12.2020]

[2] BBC News, (19.11.2020), Brexit: UK ‘will be less safe without EU security deal’ – police chief, [accessed 03.12.2020]

[3] BBC News, (19.11.2020), Brexit: UK ‘will be less safe without EU security deal’ – police chief, [accessed 03.12.2020]

[4] BBC News, (19.11.2020), Brexit: UK ‘will be less safe without EU security deal’ – police chief, [accessed 03.12.2020]

[5] BBC News, (19.11.2020), Brexit: UK ‘will be less safe without EU security deal’ – police chief, [accessed 03.12.2020]

[6] Police Oracle, (19.11.2020), NCA and NPCC leads provide detail of no deal exit plans, [accessed 03.12.2020]

[7] London Assembly Police and Crime Committee, (11 November 2020), Transcript, pages 14-17